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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 497 for the 29th of April

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2018 Richard Saunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia and we had another vote

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and we voted for some cooler weather to

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come and it sort of did you don't look

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at but it looks cooler outside it is

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cooler outside it's a very nice day and

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what a nice day I had folks with my

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friends Lara and Trish from the skeptics

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committee are we spend a few hours today

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working on the prediction project

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marking the marketing the homework of

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psychics

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there are hundreds to get through but we

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had an interesting day marking

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predictions I think by the end of this

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were all going to know a lot about

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Nicole Kidman somehow coming up on this

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week's show what a treat what an

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interesting interview I have for you a

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few days ago I visited Bob Connelly an

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award-winning Australian filmmaker who

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in 1980 was the director now the very

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famous documentary James Randi in

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Australia the classic of all classic

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water divining tests now nobody knew at

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the time how important this documentary

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this filming would become for the

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skeptical movement it's credited with

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helping to kick off the Australian

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skeptics but even today it is a

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wonderful lesson in not only how to

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construct water divining but also the

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psychology of the water diviners and

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good old basic skepticism spoon bending

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as well told by James Randi Bob Connelly

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will tell us his recollections of

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filming James Randi in Australia and

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some interesting stories to tell about

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his experience as being a filmmaker I'm

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sure like me you will really enjoy this

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extended interview with filmmaker Bob

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Connelly following that we have a plea a

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shout out for help from skeptic zone

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listeners who know their IT know their

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web skills and if you have skills in

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capturing and making copies of web pages

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The Skeptical movement in Australia

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would like to

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from you more details coming up a bit

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later on in the show then to round off

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the show it's the diet sceptic Mandee

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Lee Noble she's going to be talking

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about kefir I have never heard of kefir

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before it's all to do with the

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probiotics and gut health and bacteria

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and microbes and all that sort of

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interesting stuff and their health

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claims made for this drink called kefir

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I think we'll all learn something this

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week with the diet skeptic a message for

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Sydneysiders we have skeptics in the pub

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this Thursday evening from 6 o'clock at

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the Occidental hotel at Wynyard just

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near Wynyard station I'll put a link to

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the show notes so you can find out more

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by a meet-up but this so week we have a

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talk on the life and works of Stephen

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Hawking by our very own rocket scientist

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Ian Bryce that should be a very

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interesting evening and if you're in

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Sydney I hope to see you there at

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skeptics in the pub and if you are there

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come up and say hello who knows you

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might end up on the sceptic zone but now

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it's time for me to run downstairs and

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have a cup of kefir I think Lexi um I'll

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hold off on that until I hear Mandy

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Lee's Nobel's report on the subject I

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might run down stairs and have a glass

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of water maybe after the show I might

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have a glass of careful we'll find out

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well I make up my mind and do that I

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hope you enjoy the skeptic zone

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[Music]

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is speaking to film director Bob

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Connolly hello Bob hi great to catch up

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with you now folks bob is the man who

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directed is that the right term the

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original warded divining documentary

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called James Randi in Australia way back

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in 1980 but before we get to that Bob

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what is your background oh I'm a I'm a

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documentary filmmaker I've been one for

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the last 40 odd years I suppose I

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started at the agency I trained as a

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journalist of the ABC as a cadet and

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after a stint of as a foreign

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correspondent in New York and yeah it

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began a career as an independent

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documentary filmmaker so how then did

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you go from from that to doing this

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documentary

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well that was this is I had been working

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at the ABC for about 14 years and I I

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basically met up with Robin Anderson who

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became my life partner and professional

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working partner we made documentaries

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for a quarter of a century together but

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she said to me at that point she had

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just come from New York wishing to stun

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a master's in sociology at Columbia and

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she said you've been at the ABC too long

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so it's time you time your left and I

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was you know in love with the

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fortnightly paycheck and she said well

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if it's you know if you don't go I will

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so ideally didn't want that to happen

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so we became independent filmmakers and

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I'd met dick while I was at the ABC

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doing a film about I did a feature

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documentary about Antarctica about the

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end tactic treaty and Dick had started

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up these these aerial flight server

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Antarctic it was Qantas and he I rang

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him up and I said look you know we're

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doing this documentary about the

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Antarctic Treaty which is chuh and

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whenever it was 10 or 15 years time and

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would you mind if we sort of set the the

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dock Oh in this sort of in the plane

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going down to the Antarctic and we could

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use it as a springboard to talk about

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the various political and

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you know economic issues and so on he

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said yeah okay and I said he said how

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many of you will there be and I said

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five and he said you can have two and

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that was my first lesson in independent

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filmmaking from dick Smith and I learned

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a lot more from him too

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so anyway we liked each other you know

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as a result and then when I quit the ABC

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he somehow heard about it and he rang up

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and said how about we make some films

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together and I've got this one coming up

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I'm a member of the skeptics and I want

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to make this film there's me and Richard

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Cartman and I think I think Philip Adams

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was involved with its phase so of course

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I jumped at it the more and the more I

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sort of went into it and then then I met

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James Randi who was just an electrifying

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character absolutely electrifying he I

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just began I mean with a minimal crew

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with not a great deal of preparation

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because we didn't have to do much so I

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mean Randy was astonishingly able you

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know and and he'd done it many times

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before he knew exactly what the

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situation was he predicted everything

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that was going to happen right down to

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their stubborn refusal this is the water

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diviners even in the face of

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incontrovertible evidence which of a

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diabolical form you know in other words

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to talk about a double entrapment and so

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we shot the film over I think of you

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know three or four days or something so

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that in the documentary it starts with a

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shot of a Qantas plane flying over

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Sydney which I imagine was stock footage

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yeah it would have been yeah it would

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have been and you were here Randy's

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voice and I then it switches to like a

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mini press conference and I imagined

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that would win at the airport or in the

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hotel room or something let you recall I

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don't I don't and I look I should have

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had another look at the film which I

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haven't done and not for about not since

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I did gave me a copy about I think five

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or six years ago one of them surfaced

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thanks to you apparently and we see

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Randy doing a press conference Caesars

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talking about and he brings out that the

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Czech yeah he says this dried check has

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been in this wall or something like here

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and I don't expect ever to ever to spend

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it or somebody says yeah and you've got

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$10,000 and there are two Australian

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businessman who have each got 10,000

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that's $30,000 for anyone who can

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successfully demonstrate the paranormal

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how confident are you of keeping your

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money well let me see now I'll show you

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the check I've lured this check around

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now this one has only been carried since

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June 25th 1980 after renew it every now

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and then I don't know about your banks

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but every six months they checked like

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this goes dead you see it's no longer

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valid for 15 years this is the 15th year

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I've carry to check around like this in

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this tired of old wallet that check for

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$10,000 I've never had to give up 5

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cents of it so far that doesn't mean

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that I won't it doesn't mean that I'm

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not willing I can lose I can lose

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$10,000 but I would gladly surrender

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that $10,000 if I were given evidence of

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one paranormal ability of any kind

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because it would open my universe much

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larger than it is it's a wonderful

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universe I live in I enjoy life from day

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to day I have my ups and downs like

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everyone else but I think it is a

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wonderful world that we live in

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I don't need miracles of a semi

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religious nature as they put it in order

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to make my world any better but to be

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offered something like that to know that

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a person could float in the air could

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find concealed water underground could

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bend a spoon by merely thinking about it

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that would make my universe a hundred

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times bigger than it is and all of our

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marvelous it would be worth $10,000 so

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so he arrives and he's being looked

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after by Dick Smith as far as dick Smith

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tells me and then it was a matter of

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were you involved in any way of

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selecting the location or that had

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already been no that had all been done

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right yeah that had all been done and it

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had to be a very particular sort of

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location obviously where there was no

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possibility that the water table was up

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the mine you know and this sort of film

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work you you you you don't direct things

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you capture them you know that's the

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whole philosophy of it of course so what

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I do is wait for things to happen and

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hopefully beyond beyond beyond him when

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they do happen and so you had a couple

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of days the water diviners turn up did

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you have much interaction with those

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people you're just following them around

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now we talk to them and there are

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charming bunch of people they were they

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were supremely confident you know they

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came up to me and basically I remember

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them

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arguments about you know because they

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thought they would all pass the test all

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of them were convinced that they would

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pass the test and they had a bit of an

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argument about how they should divide up

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the money once the ones that was awarded

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and who should get it because they all

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thought they would and they decided they

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were basically split it that was there

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that was but I mean they were they were

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00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:03,660
they seemingly normal every everyday

272
00:11:08,660 --> 00:11:07,410
sort of people and and I guess part part

273
00:11:10,069 --> 00:11:08,670
of the reason for that is that they'd

274
00:11:11,870 --> 00:11:10,079
had their prejudice or at least their

275
00:11:13,699 --> 00:11:11,880
beliefs reinforced constantly for a

276
00:11:14,540 --> 00:11:13,709
lifetime because that's what most of

277
00:11:17,329 --> 00:11:14,550
them did for a living

278
00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:17,339
yeah they were water diviners and they

279
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:19,680
found water and the farmers thank them

280
00:11:24,410 --> 00:11:21,930
for it and I have some far I had some

281
00:11:26,660 --> 00:11:24,420
farmer friends Jack and Charles chat her

282
00:11:28,750 --> 00:11:26,670
Francis Erica bothering out of Forbes

283
00:11:31,250 --> 00:11:28,760
and I remember talking to them about

284
00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:31,260
about these waters - did I hear of

285
00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:32,880
course yeah of course yeah they found

286
00:11:39,980 --> 00:11:36,110
some water for us - you know and I

287
00:11:43,660 --> 00:11:39,990
remember at the time I didn't I didn't

288
00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:43,670
think much of that but and and I had I

289
00:11:49,879 --> 00:11:46,560
had I'm not a member and I wasn't a

290
00:11:53,090 --> 00:11:49,889
member of skeptics I was a filmmaker and

291
00:11:54,889 --> 00:11:53,100
I kept a deliberate in neutral attitude

292
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:54,899
about the whole thing I wasn't gonna go

293
00:11:58,430 --> 00:11:56,610
in there with my mind made up about the

294
00:12:00,590 --> 00:11:58,440
whole the whole process that wasn't

295
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:00,600
really my job my job was to capture what

296
00:12:04,850 --> 00:12:02,610
happened as accurately and as honestly

297
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:04,860
as possible and I told them there - I

298
00:12:11,389 --> 00:12:07,170
said that's my ground rule on the whole

299
00:12:14,660 --> 00:12:11,399
thing and it was a it was a revelation

300
00:12:17,180 --> 00:12:14,670
for me I mean I I sort of watched it

301
00:12:19,610 --> 00:12:17,190
with increasing disbelief yeah I mean

302
00:12:21,259 --> 00:12:19,620
it's not hard Civic shifty ground fairly

303
00:12:23,449 --> 00:12:21,269
early when you're dealing with someone

304
00:12:24,860 --> 00:12:23,459
like James Randi who was a genius I mean

305
00:12:26,449 --> 00:12:24,870
there's just no question that a

306
00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:26,459
lightning mind yeah

307
00:12:33,860 --> 00:12:29,510
a lightning mind and credibly smart guy

308
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:33,870
but driven by what I remember was you

309
00:12:38,449 --> 00:12:36,240
know and he did his best to hide it but

310
00:12:41,540 --> 00:12:38,459
deep down there was almost a sort of an

311
00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:41,550
incandescent rage there about about it

312
00:12:47,329 --> 00:12:44,760
you know he he was some he's it was his

313
00:12:48,439 --> 00:12:47,339
life's mission to explode all this stuff

314
00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:48,449
because he thought that people were

315
00:12:52,430 --> 00:12:51,420
being duped yeah yeah although it from

316
00:12:54,770 --> 00:12:52,440
your point of view

317
00:12:57,410 --> 00:12:54,780
and I think it's reflected in the

318
00:13:00,320 --> 00:12:57,420
documentary the test itself was very

319
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:00,330
fair I mean if people if somebody there

320
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:03,450
had the ability they they would have

321
00:13:10,910 --> 00:13:05,930
passed the test well it was very fair

322
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:10,920
because Randy didn't need to be

323
00:13:16,370 --> 00:13:14,250
duplicitous I mean he he had done it

324
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:16,380
before oh yeah yeah I mean it would have

325
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:18,720
been an appalling error of judgment to

326
00:13:22,910 --> 00:13:20,880
have bodied it up in any kind of way it

327
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:22,920
was very fair it was deliberately

328
00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:25,710
designed to be fair and the thing I

329
00:13:29,630 --> 00:13:27,150
found fascinating about it was

330
00:13:32,630 --> 00:13:29,640
deliberately designed to basically make

331
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:32,640
it impossible for people other than

332
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:34,410
being delusional

333
00:13:40,910 --> 00:13:38,610
to weasel out of the outcome and he was

334
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:40,920
absolutely clear about it you have a one

335
00:13:46,060 --> 00:13:43,170
you know the highest you will get is

336
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:46,070
prot is almost certainly one out of ten

337
00:13:51,470 --> 00:13:49,170
in terms of your you know your ability

338
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:51,480
to read it which of these pipes has got

339
00:13:55,190 --> 00:13:53,130
the water in them you know that will be

340
00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:55,200
the result if it's pure chance it's one

341
00:13:59,630 --> 00:13:57,930
out of ten and I think it was very close

342
00:14:01,790 --> 00:13:59,640
to one out of ten yeah I think in the

343
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:01,800
end is just fractionally higher because

344
00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:04,250
they also did not only water they heard

345
00:14:09,860 --> 00:14:07,740
gold a gold day they buried some gold

346
00:14:11,690 --> 00:14:09,870
and I think they buried some jewels or

347
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:11,700
money or something like that that was

348
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:13,890
sort of a sideshow you know that while

349
00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:15,690
they were waiting for thee for the

350
00:14:21,950 --> 00:14:17,700
adjudicators you know supervised by the

351
00:14:23,660 --> 00:14:21,960
Church of England Reverend Ted not to

352
00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:23,670
give it him just to make sure you know

353
00:14:28,610 --> 00:14:26,910
the Magus all honesty I thought that was

354
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:28,620
a nice touch so what all that was

355
00:14:32,030 --> 00:14:30,330
happening they all said well now we are

356
00:14:34,010 --> 00:14:32,040
going to bury some money now and can you

357
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:34,020
all divine money yeah we can divine

358
00:14:39,410 --> 00:14:36,450
anything you tell us and so off they

359
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:39,420
went like lemmings you know and of

360
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:42,690
course went over the hill again it was

361
00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:45,450
extraordinary yeah amazing was a lot of

362
00:14:51,860 --> 00:14:49,440
fun to do it is something that having

363
00:14:53,420 --> 00:14:51,870
done lots of tests since then and that's

364
00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:53,430
been always been my inspiration it's

365
00:14:56,900 --> 00:14:55,350
it's if I could have a time machine I'd

366
00:14:59,390 --> 00:14:56,910
love to go back and see what it was like

367
00:15:01,700 --> 00:14:59,400
on the day and what was so James Randi

368
00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:01,710
was obviously running around making sure

369
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:03,480
everything was ticking over what was

370
00:15:09,410 --> 00:15:05,490
dick doing all this time dick Smith

371
00:15:11,690 --> 00:15:09,420
ah backing him up and chortling away and

372
00:15:13,190 --> 00:15:11,700
talking to the press and having a great

373
00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:13,200
deal of fun which is what he always does

374
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:16,040
yeah I mean he's like a big kid you know

375
00:15:23,630 --> 00:15:21,810
with extremely expensive toys I've had a

376
00:15:25,550 --> 00:15:23,640
ride in his expensive toy he's the

377
00:15:27,139 --> 00:15:25,560
helicopter one city yeah that's right

378
00:15:29,630 --> 00:15:27,149
well we did about three films together

379
00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:29,640
but the helicopter is the basis solid

380
00:15:34,370 --> 00:15:31,529
and it was an extraordinary experience

381
00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:34,380
yeah I mean but mine because underneath

382
00:15:42,889 --> 00:15:38,310
that is a man of a very considerable

383
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:42,899
intellect and and an extraordinary sort

384
00:15:47,870 --> 00:15:45,570
of innovative judgment you know he's you

385
00:15:50,780 --> 00:15:47,880
don't get to be where dick Smith is

386
00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:50,790
without a lot of innate qualities of a

387
00:15:57,860 --> 00:15:54,649
certain sort but part of that was his

388
00:16:00,050 --> 00:15:57,870
was his just almost school boyish

389
00:16:02,540 --> 00:16:00,060
enthusiasm for life you know he's the

390
00:16:04,220 --> 00:16:02,550
antithesis of the of the sort of a

391
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:04,230
millionaire who buries himself away in

392
00:16:10,819 --> 00:16:08,399
Bellevue Hill and you know he's just and

393
00:16:13,940 --> 00:16:10,829
he despises people like that too in a

394
00:16:16,190 --> 00:16:13,950
way you know he uses these money in a

395
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:16,200
very whimsical way but almost almost

396
00:16:22,430 --> 00:16:19,370
always in the pursuit of knowledge or

397
00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:22,440
related areas and that's on now about

398
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:24,480
overpopulation yeah you know well that's

399
00:16:27,530 --> 00:16:26,130
his track record and all the adventures

400
00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:27,540
he does - yeah

401
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:31,500
so yes dick Smith on that on the ride it

402
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:33,570
wasn't it was a field at ride yeah was

403
00:16:37,310 --> 00:16:35,040
right top right he was running on a

404
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:37,320
little hill yeah yeah which which is

405
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:38,910
interesting in the documentary the

406
00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:41,910
voice-over says on a in a field on the

407
00:16:47,050 --> 00:16:44,190
outskirts of Sydney which it was then

408
00:16:50,380 --> 00:16:47,060
yeah yeah

409
00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:50,390
on Sydney's outskirts a team of workmen

410
00:16:55,030 --> 00:16:52,580
begin preparing the site for Australia's

411
00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:55,040
first definitive test of water divining

412
00:17:00,160 --> 00:16:58,130
the test has been designed with the

413
00:17:03,220 --> 00:17:00,170
complete agreement of the water diviners

414
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:03,230
themselves ten parallel trenches are dug

415
00:17:08,410 --> 00:17:06,650
to take ten plastic water pipes the

416
00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:08,420
diviners will have to detect in which

417
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:11,120
pipe the water is flowing now what what

418
00:17:18,430 --> 00:17:12,890
the pipes what one meter apart where's

419
00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:18,440
the the tile one open and can we get

420
00:17:21,490 --> 00:17:19,910
little holes in the top of the pot so i

421
00:17:23,410 --> 00:17:21,500
can d/l put bail box on all of these

422
00:17:27,550 --> 00:17:23,420
right if we just have little holes in

423
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:27,560
the top of the pipe to anyone who looks

424
00:17:31,570 --> 00:17:29,330
at it can tell there is water flowing in

425
00:17:41,050 --> 00:17:31,580
that pipe you got what are you gonna use

426
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:41,060
I've been here pipe like this such a

427
00:17:56,980 --> 00:17:43,730
beautiful job you've done valve box

428
00:17:58,120 --> 00:17:56,990
although valves be in the ground we're

429
00:18:00,730 --> 00:17:58,130
not going to bury this until tomorrow

430
00:18:02,290 --> 00:18:00,740
always no no we want them to see that it

431
00:18:04,090 --> 00:18:02,300
is a legitimate setup that the pipes are

432
00:18:05,530 --> 00:18:04,100
in the ground they must understand every

433
00:18:07,810 --> 00:18:05,540
fact about this thing up until the last

434
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:07,820
moment they will not understand in which

435
00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:09,410
pipe the water is flowing it's like I

436
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:14,180
won't know it we don't we don't want to

437
00:18:17,860 --> 00:18:16,610
bury it moments before oh so they're

438
00:18:19,330 --> 00:18:17,870
absolutely sure that nothing took place

439
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:19,340
overnight they're going to suspect

440
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:21,530
because the powers I think will not work

441
00:18:24,250 --> 00:18:22,730
they're going to suspect some chicane

442
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:24,260
Murray we've got to show them every

443
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:25,850
detail of it they must be absolutely

444
00:18:29,140 --> 00:18:27,530
assured in their own minds that the test

445
00:18:31,540 --> 00:18:29,150
is being done fair then they each do a

446
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:31,550
divining test over the area beforehand

447
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:33,410
but there's no water that's gonna worry

448
00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:35,360
they've got to say where it is and if I

449
00:18:38,830 --> 00:18:37,310
say that it's near pipe number six or

450
00:18:40,270 --> 00:18:38,840
something then we say okay we will not

451
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:40,280
do six then their chances are one out of

452
00:18:42,970 --> 00:18:41,930
nine we hope we won't have been doing

453
00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:42,980
all this work do you believe in what

454
00:18:47,410 --> 00:18:45,230
device yeah if there's ten pipes there

455
00:18:49,540 --> 00:18:47,420
I'd be and I'll put water in one of

456
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:49,550
those parts yes and you've got to find

457
00:18:52,750 --> 00:18:51,530
out which one it is yes and then that'll

458
00:18:56,289 --> 00:18:52,760
drain their pie

459
00:18:59,140 --> 00:18:56,299
and then put it in another pipe and no

460
00:19:01,990 --> 00:18:59,150
better traffic check the water and with

461
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:02,000
your Elif I believe they've gone to

462
00:19:06,730 --> 00:19:04,400
quite some deal of effort and work to

463
00:19:09,220 --> 00:19:06,740
try and make it clear for all concerned

464
00:19:10,930 --> 00:19:09,230
and I think we'll find that in fact I'm

465
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:10,940
sure there'll be a result and possibly

466
00:19:15,159 --> 00:19:12,890
ten results tomorrow the way things

467
00:19:16,450 --> 00:19:15,169
looking you think ten the ten diviners

468
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:16,460
will be able to get it right I'll be

469
00:19:20,260 --> 00:19:18,290
very surprised if that if the ten of

470
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:20,270
them do not yeah of course it's all now

471
00:19:24,190 --> 00:19:22,910
commercial buildings and everything

472
00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:24,200
feels long gone

473
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:27,049
yeah what's 40 years ago it's amazing

474
00:19:33,610 --> 00:19:30,320
it's terrifying terrifying

475
00:19:35,350 --> 00:19:33,620
well yeah it's it's funny I mean how the

476
00:19:37,150 --> 00:19:35,360
time for well it's just normal human

477
00:19:40,090 --> 00:19:37,160
experience isn't it time flies like that

478
00:19:43,539 --> 00:19:40,100
so you do the tests over it was it it

479
00:19:45,070 --> 00:19:43,549
was just one day one day and all the

480
00:19:47,220 --> 00:19:45,080
diviners were there running around and

481
00:19:49,780 --> 00:19:47,230
everything because there are shots of

482
00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:49,790
earlier on when we're just meeting the

483
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:51,500
diviners and folks I'll certainly link

484
00:19:56,860 --> 00:19:52,970
to the video in the show notes so you

485
00:19:58,900 --> 00:19:56,870
can enjoy it we have a long shot of the

486
00:20:00,549 --> 00:19:58,910
Viners we're all walking around a field

487
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:00,559
I don't know if you recall doing

488
00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:03,770
cutaways like inspecting it and no just

489
00:20:07,810 --> 00:20:06,110
there's a field not the field but like a

490
00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:07,820
park and they're all running around with

491
00:20:12,940 --> 00:20:09,440
divining sticks and this funny music

492
00:20:15,220 --> 00:20:12,950
blaring and all this sort of yeah now

493
00:20:17,020 --> 00:20:15,230
how much after the filming was done how

494
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:17,030
much input did you have in the the

495
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:18,530
editing process

496
00:20:23,049 --> 00:20:20,570
oh the film you had you were the editor

497
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:23,059
Tim well we had an editor someone who

498
00:20:28,990 --> 00:20:25,850
was 16 mo film back then of course not

499
00:20:31,870 --> 00:20:29,000
tape and so I just as usual supervise

500
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:31,880
the NZ of course we had a professional

501
00:20:36,490 --> 00:20:35,330
editor and it was you know we I think we

502
00:20:38,860 --> 00:20:36,500
put it together in about 10 days

503
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:38,870
something like that so yeah all the

504
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:40,970
other the original footage you were of

505
00:20:44,710 --> 00:20:42,890
shot I wouldn't wonder where that could

506
00:20:46,750 --> 00:20:44,720
be and you look it's like marble chips

507
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:46,760
you know let's have that's our

508
00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:49,280
filmmakers view it you know it's like

509
00:20:52,750 --> 00:20:51,049
when he is shaping the statue and there

510
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:52,760
the marble chips all the rushes but go

511
00:20:57,430 --> 00:20:55,130
that was as a satyrs reversal film that

512
00:21:00,190 --> 00:20:57,440
would have been thrown out after a

513
00:21:01,390 --> 00:21:00,200
period of time I imagine so and all the

514
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:01,400
bits that didn't make because if I

515
00:21:04,629 --> 00:21:03,200
remember we shot a sequence of still of

516
00:21:07,060 --> 00:21:04,639
animals

517
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:07,070
with these some you know cuz Randi also

518
00:21:10,810 --> 00:21:10,370
went for these faith medical people as

519
00:21:13,509 --> 00:21:10,820
well

520
00:21:15,549 --> 00:21:13,519
psychic surgeons yeah so and and Philip

521
00:21:18,430 --> 00:21:15,559
agreed very reluctantly to lie on a

522
00:21:20,889 --> 00:21:18,440
table and have his shirt pulled up you

523
00:21:24,039 --> 00:21:20,899
know and cuz James said now I will now

524
00:21:25,810 --> 00:21:24,049
take the poisons out of your and this

525
00:21:28,389 --> 00:21:25,820
was particularly interesting to me

526
00:21:30,009 --> 00:21:28,399
because now it's too long ago to

527
00:21:32,620 --> 00:21:30,019
remember now but it was either before

528
00:21:36,129 --> 00:21:32,630
they sought after it and I'm almost

529
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:36,139
certain that was after it well let me

530
00:21:41,139 --> 00:21:37,610
explain what he did what he did he

531
00:21:42,940 --> 00:21:41,149
basically he he put his we were filming

532
00:21:45,129 --> 00:21:42,950
it and he put his finger that they'd

533
00:21:47,740 --> 00:21:45,139
been a few spoons right before this

534
00:21:49,779 --> 00:21:47,750
which had the camera the sound recordist

535
00:21:51,970 --> 00:21:49,789
was very skeptical because he actually

536
00:21:54,279 --> 00:21:51,980
believed in all the sort of stuff from

537
00:21:56,620 --> 00:21:54,289
memory and so he was one guy who needed

538
00:21:58,570 --> 00:21:56,630
to be convinced and also of the water

539
00:22:00,490 --> 00:21:58,580
diviner he wasn't he wasn't at all

540
00:22:02,289 --> 00:22:00,500
because he'd had some experience with it

541
00:22:04,450 --> 00:22:02,299
out in the bushels of another so this

542
00:22:07,210 --> 00:22:04,460
guy was definitely not a not a

543
00:22:09,789 --> 00:22:07,220
card-carrying skeptic of any sort and he

544
00:22:12,669 --> 00:22:09,799
gradually had he had his beliefs

545
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:12,679
he's abolished as we went on and I

546
00:22:16,629 --> 00:22:13,970
remember with the you know with this

547
00:22:18,669 --> 00:22:16,639
with the with the spoon and just as a

548
00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:18,679
matter of a throwaway while we were

549
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:21,200
preparing to film his operation on fill

550
00:22:25,810 --> 00:22:23,210
of atoms while they're prepping him you

551
00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:25,820
know for the operation he just got this

552
00:22:29,019 --> 00:22:27,289
he started playing with the sound

553
00:22:31,210 --> 00:22:29,029
recorder he's now I want you to rub the

554
00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:31,220
spoon straight you know the whole week

555
00:22:36,629 --> 00:22:33,049
murali go through and then because he

556
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:36,639
gets this braixen oh my god you know

557
00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:39,200
that's in the documentary is it that

558
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:42,260
service because it's it's a wonderful

559
00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:43,760
sequence well here's the spoon anyway

560
00:22:48,009 --> 00:22:45,289
there was been by re the Melbourne boy

561
00:22:49,629 --> 00:22:48,019
several years ago can you tell me that

562
00:22:51,850 --> 00:22:49,639
that was trickery even though I've no

563
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:51,860
idea because I wasn't there all I can

564
00:22:55,149 --> 00:22:53,510
say is it's more probable it is trickery

565
00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:55,159
than that it is a supernatural

566
00:22:58,750 --> 00:22:56,960
occurrence because you admit that the

567
00:23:00,100 --> 00:22:58,760
conditions were not scientifically we're

568
00:23:01,930 --> 00:23:00,110
not complete whatsoever now the

569
00:23:03,669 --> 00:23:01,940
conditions weren't scientific it but it

570
00:23:05,710 --> 00:23:03,679
appeared is that he bent the spin period

571
00:23:06,879 --> 00:23:05,720
as if you did yes alright well and how

572
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:06,889
would that be done how would that sort

573
00:23:10,419 --> 00:23:08,450
of trickery or sleight of hand be done

574
00:23:12,159 --> 00:23:10,429
would you take this balloon and hold it

575
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:12,169
between your fingers like this in front

576
00:23:15,390 --> 00:23:12,610
of me

577
00:23:17,370 --> 00:23:15,400
put your elbows on the table okay let's

578
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:17,380
present it so that it is fairly visible

579
00:23:20,850 --> 00:23:19,600
now you're holding it firmly pinch it

580
00:23:22,290 --> 00:23:20,860
like that so that you have good control

581
00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:22,300
over it flies to turn it just a little

582
00:23:25,380 --> 00:23:23,950
bit sideways looking a little bit like

583
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:25,390
that that's fine now I'm really going to

584
00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:26,710
stroke it with my index pair I'm not

585
00:23:29,820 --> 00:23:28,510
putting undue pressure on if I put

586
00:23:30,690 --> 00:23:29,830
pressure on like that I would move your

587
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:30,700
arms right right

588
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:32,170
I'm not putting undue pressure on you're

589
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:33,910
going to get a remarkable illusion

590
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:36,250
taking place here you will think if you

591
00:23:38,820 --> 00:23:37,570
aren't very careful you would begin to

592
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:38,830
think that it looks rubbery am I correct

593
00:23:42,420 --> 00:23:40,810
yes now I'm putting very little hold it

594
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:42,430
very very lightly very funny so you're

595
00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:44,080
barely holding it look at this the

596
00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:45,520
appears divot getting rubbery let go

597
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:47,200
there for a second if you will now I'm

598
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:48,370
just gonna hold it like this and I'm

599
00:23:53,820 --> 00:23:51,490
just gonna have mr. Gamble's is there no

600
00:23:55,380 --> 00:23:53,830
and I did a rather well I think

601
00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:55,390
no I think you did it very well but how

602
00:23:59,370 --> 00:23:58,090
did you do it I'm sorry to tell you that

603
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:59,380
you'd be as smart as I am and I don't

604
00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:00,880
want you to be quite as smart as I am

605
00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:02,950
because then you wouldn't say come on

606
00:24:05,910 --> 00:24:04,150
no this is do you say this is the one

607
00:24:07,260 --> 00:24:05,920
they don't already been yeah but just by

608
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:07,270
stroking it gently a bad you've been

609
00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:11,890
dead fantastic so Randy does the spoon

610
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:14,350
thing and like this and there's a

611
00:24:21,150 --> 00:24:18,610
cutaway to Dick Smith standing next to a

612
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:21,160
cameraman in Fitz and the cameraman

613
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:24,490
telling dick to be quite here okay and

614
00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:26,530
then I think we filmed the rant the the

615
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:28,780
Philip Adams operation but maybe Philip

616
00:24:33,660 --> 00:24:30,490
didn't want to be in at all well maybe

617
00:24:35,610 --> 00:24:33,670
because the only the only time Philip is

618
00:24:39,210 --> 00:24:35,620
in the final Philip Adams is in the

619
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:39,220
final cut is right at the end okay so

620
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:40,690
we're Randy's doing a trick with a

621
00:24:45,870 --> 00:24:43,210
cigarette on the table oh that's right

622
00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:45,880
yes Oh psychic surgeon bit didn't make

623
00:24:48,810 --> 00:24:47,470
the fight well I thought it was the best

624
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:48,820
bit I don't know I don't know why I got

625
00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:49,210
cut out

626
00:24:52,830 --> 00:24:50,710
I know Phil it probably didn't what he

627
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:52,840
didn't want it I mean he because he you

628
00:24:57,330 --> 00:24:55,930
saw his extremely capacious and maybe it

629
00:24:59,460 --> 00:24:57,340
was a bit silly because he always wears

630
00:25:02,340 --> 00:24:59,470
black all black so yeah that's a deadly

631
00:25:05,130 --> 00:25:02,350
tilt self-consciousness

632
00:25:07,980 --> 00:25:05,140
but it was astounding because I remember

633
00:25:09,270 --> 00:25:07,990
watching you know where as as he saw

634
00:25:11,310 --> 00:25:09,280
that he said now I'm gonna take all

635
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:11,320
these terrible things that are in your

636
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:13,570
stomach all these wicked tumours and

637
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:15,010
things that have been making you feel

638
00:25:21,030 --> 00:25:18,130
ill so he gets his fingers and he starts

639
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:21,040
pushing and he pushes deeper and deeper

640
00:25:26,100 --> 00:25:23,770
into this super capacious roll of full

641
00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:26,110
of fat and dumb

642
00:25:31,860 --> 00:25:28,720
and then this blood wells up you know

643
00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:31,870
and it's the most extraordinary sight I

644
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:35,230
mean you could swear blind that he is

645
00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:36,880
actually putting his penetrated his

646
00:25:41,820 --> 00:25:39,040
stomach yeah and then the blood wells up

647
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:41,830
underneath goes it's coming I can get it

648
00:25:49,799 --> 00:25:44,559
now as the blood world and he just pulls

649
00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:49,809
out this giblet and says I've got it

650
00:25:54,210 --> 00:25:52,270
yeah yeah and we've just we were

651
00:25:56,730 --> 00:25:54,220
gobsmacked absolutely gobsmacked at me

652
00:26:00,060 --> 00:25:56,740
and we we said how do you do it come on

653
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:00,070
how do you do it and he showed us yeah

654
00:26:04,650 --> 00:26:01,570
basically and I don't know if I should

655
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:04,660
give that away should I or I if

656
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:06,850
listeners really want to know they can

657
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:09,730
find out okay yeah but it's son it's

658
00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:11,410
it's sleight of hand it's slide if well

659
00:26:15,180 --> 00:26:13,120
it's sort of slider that yet his sleight

660
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:15,190
of hand but it's very well prepared

661
00:26:22,409 --> 00:26:17,770
sleight of hand yeah there's a certain

662
00:26:24,270 --> 00:26:22,419
prop that we all exactly so that you

663
00:26:26,010 --> 00:26:24,280
know that was just absolutely shorted

664
00:26:30,810 --> 00:26:26,020
but but the point I was gonna make was

665
00:26:32,580 --> 00:26:30,820
that my mother who was a dear soul was

666
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:32,590
very much into all this stuff were G

667
00:26:36,510 --> 00:26:34,570
boards and you know visiting of the

668
00:26:38,010 --> 00:26:36,520
hereafter and she's to go across this

669
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:38,020
place in England I mean it was there one

670
00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:40,330
blind spot and otherwise highly

671
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:41,950
intelligent not particularly

672
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:45,970
well-educated woman but she believed and

673
00:26:49,980 --> 00:26:47,410
all this sort of stuff and she and she

674
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:49,990
finally she got the deal at one point

675
00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:51,850
she started going to this faith healer

676
00:26:56,610 --> 00:26:55,780
guy in Kings Cross no woman a woman

677
00:26:58,860 --> 00:26:56,620
that's sure oh yeah

678
00:27:01,470 --> 00:26:58,870
and she went to him a cup and she told

679
00:27:03,270 --> 00:27:01,480
me breath breathlessly about this this

680
00:27:05,370 --> 00:27:03,280
wonderful woman and how she was you know

681
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:05,380
but operate on their time it identical

682
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:09,130
thing that this that this that Randy did

683
00:27:15,150 --> 00:27:11,650
with Philip yeah and I said I can I come

684
00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:15,160
along and she said oh okay so I went

685
00:27:19,770 --> 00:27:17,350
along saying and we went into the room

686
00:27:23,250 --> 00:27:19,780
and he is this woman or not not quite

687
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:23,260
dressed up in bangles and veils and you

688
00:27:26,340 --> 00:27:24,730
know and there wasn't a crystal ball and

689
00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:26,350
then like that but it was like a sort of

690
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:31,260
semi clinical environment and basically

691
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:34,330
she sort of said who's who you know and

692
00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:36,970
I said I'm just very curious to see how

693
00:27:40,330 --> 00:27:38,720
you actually operated

694
00:27:41,980 --> 00:27:40,340
and she said no I can't do it in the

695
00:27:44,380 --> 00:27:41,990
presence of others

696
00:27:46,390 --> 00:27:44,390
so I wasn't allowed to I wasn't allowed

697
00:27:48,490 --> 00:27:46,400
to watch I was sitting at the door but I

698
00:27:51,159 --> 00:27:48,500
I really went to town on my mum after

699
00:27:52,990 --> 00:27:51,169
that you know and she stopped going to

700
00:27:55,330 --> 00:27:53,000
her as it happened but I mean that was

701
00:27:59,020 --> 00:27:55,340
an object lesson for me well there are

702
00:28:00,430 --> 00:27:59,030
two things that when I'm giving public

703
00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:00,440
talks and whatever I say there are two

704
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:03,440
things that for sure I mean there are

705
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:05,120
many but for the two things for sure

706
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:06,320
that we know if they are being done

707
00:28:10,419 --> 00:28:07,850
they're being done as a scam and a con

708
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:10,429
yeah because there are lots of people

709
00:28:13,149 --> 00:28:11,840
who call themselves psychics out there

710
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:13,159
who've convinced themselves they have

711
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:15,200
magical powers yeah a lot of people are

712
00:28:19,330 --> 00:28:17,090
very honestly deluded but there are two

713
00:28:21,220 --> 00:28:19,340
things for sure we know you can't be

714
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:21,230
deluded you have to learn one is spoon

715
00:28:24,430 --> 00:28:22,970
bending because you have to learn the

716
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:24,440
trick and the other a psychic surgery

717
00:28:28,899 --> 00:28:27,710
because as you know it's a it's a

718
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:28,909
sleight of hand it's a con from

719
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:30,650
beginning to end so you can't innocently

720
00:28:35,049 --> 00:28:32,720
fool yourself you're doing this exactly

721
00:28:37,899 --> 00:28:35,059
yeah yeah and I mean that was that was

722
00:28:40,450 --> 00:28:37,909
Randy's whole whole thing you know I'm a

723
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:40,460
I'm a I'm a magician I'm a magician and

724
00:28:44,350 --> 00:28:42,799
the problem with people like uri geller

725
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:44,360
and always sort of people is that when

726
00:28:49,149 --> 00:28:47,330
they're subjected to tests they're

727
00:28:51,220 --> 00:28:49,159
they're they're interlocutors are

728
00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:51,230
scientists but scientists are not

729
00:28:55,690 --> 00:28:52,640
trained the magicians I mean they're

730
00:28:58,180 --> 00:28:55,700
magicians they so rejects a magician to

731
00:29:01,299 --> 00:28:58,190
expose a magician yeah the curious thing

732
00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:01,309
is that they just many of many many

733
00:29:04,990 --> 00:29:03,110
years later in nineteen was it on

734
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:05,000
actually and I think about it was before

735
00:29:14,169 --> 00:29:11,120
it was 1975 I had done a film for the

736
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:14,179
ABC and an aboriginal settlement in

737
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:15,650
central australia called you and a moon

738
00:29:22,090 --> 00:29:19,970
and while we were there we were filming

739
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:22,100
these three old men out and about ten

740
00:29:27,610 --> 00:29:24,530
kilometres out from the settlement in

741
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:27,620
late evening one day and and they were

742
00:29:33,220 --> 00:29:30,320
doing a sand painting thing for us right

743
00:29:35,710 --> 00:29:33,230
which was open to the public just that

744
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:35,720
we could film it in other words and one

745
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:38,000
of them suddenly cried out and cut

746
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:40,850
himself with a knife across the shoulder

747
00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:44,690
and big they asked if we could they take

748
00:29:47,860 --> 00:29:45,860
them straight away back into the

749
00:29:51,020 --> 00:29:47,870
settlement now we were as I said ten

750
00:29:54,530 --> 00:29:53,150
a lot of those very little wood wood

751
00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:54,540
there or he said was right out in the

752
00:29:58,220 --> 00:29:56,070
open there's no way that they could have

753
00:30:01,340 --> 00:29:58,230
got any signal or anything like that and

754
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:01,350
when we got into the settlement it was

755
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:02,910
dark as we've gone out and attracted

756
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:04,890
with a trailer there was a huge crowd

757
00:30:11,420 --> 00:30:07,650
around this little aid post right and I

758
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:11,430
went in to see the the the nurse that

759
00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:12,810
was on duty there and I said what's

760
00:30:17,780 --> 00:30:14,510
happened and she said I've as a man died

761
00:30:20,150 --> 00:30:17,790
now the reason I found that interesting

762
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:20,160
is that just before this guy cut himself

763
00:30:24,260 --> 00:30:22,530
I had looked at my watch because I was

764
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:24,270
very worried about the color temperature

765
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:26,850
because we were losing light and I

766
00:30:32,090 --> 00:30:30,480
noticed it was 5:30 and I asked the

767
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:32,100
nurse what time did that he done did he

768
00:30:37,820 --> 00:30:35,370
die and and she said I've disciplined my

769
00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:37,830
god check and it was like 528 or

770
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:38,700
something like that

771
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:42,000
time of death so you know that really

772
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:46,890
shook me up a bit and and then you know

773
00:30:50,330 --> 00:30:48,450
for the next 10 days there was this

774
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:50,340
elaborate sorry spectacle where they'd

775
00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:52,770
you know found out why the man had had

776
00:30:57,230 --> 00:30:55,230
why the man had died in the house in the

777
00:30:58,610 --> 00:30:57,240
hospital and who the guy was had cut

778
00:31:01,460 --> 00:30:58,620
himself you know there was a complex

779
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:01,470
clan relationship and it all had to do

780
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:03,690
with singing and you know and all the

781
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:08,970
sort of stuff and what intrigued me was

782
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:14,490
was not you know was was happen how did

783
00:31:22,610 --> 00:31:18,720
he how did he how did the song man know

784
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:22,620
that what signal did he get so I began

785
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:25,530
reading but three or four years ago I

786
00:31:29,060 --> 00:31:27,930
began writing a memoir and I was riding

787
00:31:31,370 --> 00:31:29,070
up this chapter because I was very

788
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:31,380
curious to know you know just how this

789
00:31:36,020 --> 00:31:32,640
could have happened and what the current

790
00:31:40,220 --> 00:31:36,030
thinking about it was and it turns out

791
00:31:42,890 --> 00:31:40,230
that AP Elkin the famous Australian

792
00:31:45,260 --> 00:31:42,900
anthropologists had actually you know

793
00:31:48,590 --> 00:31:45,270
seen remarkable examples of this sort of

794
00:31:50,750 --> 00:31:48,600
thing in practice in other words of all

795
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:50,760
sort of telemetry almost you know this

796
00:31:55,130 --> 00:31:53,250
of information being sent over a long

797
00:31:56,980 --> 00:31:55,140
distance and he was very intrigued

798
00:32:00,630 --> 00:31:56,990
initially skeptical but more and more

799
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:00,640
intrigued about about what it was

800
00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:02,770
and he began doing a series of

801
00:32:05,850 --> 00:32:04,720
experiments which were all inconclusive

802
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:05,860
because nobody could agree on the

803
00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:08,530
methodology for the experiments but I

804
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:14,320
still managed to find an anthropologist

805
00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:16,690
in Adelaide who was an adviser to the

806
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:18,670
South Australian government on land

807
00:32:24,150 --> 00:32:21,490
rights claims who was said to me I had

808
00:32:26,220 --> 00:32:24,160
no scepticism about that whatsoever I am

809
00:32:28,110 --> 00:32:26,230
convinced from my thirty years of

810
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:28,120
working with Aboriginal people that they

811
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:31,330
have extra extra mental powers when it

812
00:32:36,390 --> 00:32:34,570
comes to hearing and speaking to people

813
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:36,400
now then I then asked my friend across

814
00:32:39,540 --> 00:32:38,110
the road there was the emeritus

815
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:39,550
professor of anthropology at Sydney

816
00:32:42,060 --> 00:32:41,290
University and she basis said I don't

817
00:32:46,110 --> 00:32:42,070
believe it

818
00:32:47,790 --> 00:32:46,120
because when I used to go out and and

819
00:32:49,710 --> 00:32:47,800
work with the people in Herman's burg I

820
00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:49,720
saw equally extraordinary things but I'm

821
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:51,760
sure it was just you to an astonishing

822
00:32:57,030 --> 00:32:54,970
acuity of hearing or whatever and I

823
00:32:59,250 --> 00:32:57,040
finished the chapter by citing the

824
00:33:01,860 --> 00:32:59,260
example of these elephants in Africa who

825
00:33:03,450 --> 00:33:01,870
can hear now they'll suddenly lift up

826
00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:03,460
and point in a particular direction and

827
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:05,200
then head off there and what they're

828
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:08,050
hearing is thunder from up to a hundred

829
00:33:12,990 --> 00:33:10,810
kilometres away and it's a low frequency

830
00:33:14,820 --> 00:33:13,000
sound and they have ears that could pick

831
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:14,830
up a low-frequency sound from a hundred

832
00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:16,690
kilometres away so in other words

833
00:33:20,610 --> 00:33:18,640
there's a natural explanation yeah so

834
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:20,620
all this is well we would suspect we

835
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:22,690
would suspect so though sometimes it's

836
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:24,970
not always apparent or easy to find out

837
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:27,610
not at all not at all and if we were so

838
00:33:31,890 --> 00:33:28,810
to relate this back to the water

839
00:33:35,550 --> 00:33:31,900
divineness of course today in their

840
00:33:37,890 --> 00:33:35,560
worldview the answer is quite easy they

841
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:37,900
have special powers some table lets them

842
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:40,810
find water and as you saw when they

843
00:33:47,670 --> 00:33:43,600
don't their minds will race to find out

844
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:47,680
or give them comfort I didn't find it

845
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:49,810
all because my foot was sore or

846
00:33:54,930 --> 00:33:52,170
something it's a very it's a very common

847
00:33:57,210 --> 00:33:54,940
human response obviously you know when

848
00:33:58,920 --> 00:33:57,220
you are you know when you've had when

849
00:34:00,300 --> 00:33:58,930
it's been part the law has been passed

850
00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:00,310
down to you by your father and

851
00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:02,440
grandfather and and so on you know

852
00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:03,550
because it would there must be an

853
00:34:07,470 --> 00:34:05,500
ancient ritual I'd imagined comes back

854
00:34:09,090 --> 00:34:07,480
water divining dowsing this sort of

855
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:09,100
thing on thousands of years well okay so

856
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:10,720
there is a thousands of years of

857
00:34:15,270 --> 00:34:13,210
basically people having having

858
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:15,280
they're having their beliefs reinforced

859
00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:17,919
by discovery of course because so often

860
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:19,750
these people do find water if they

861
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:20,800
didn't find water

862
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:22,810
well not they discover the water table

863
00:34:27,450 --> 00:34:25,450
of course you know but I mean and they

864
00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:27,460
also are probably and I remember Randy

865
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:29,710
saying this they're very good almost

866
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:31,119
certainly very good geographers these

867
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:33,490
people you know they know land form you

868
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:35,290
know they would say you know we would we

869
00:34:41,129 --> 00:34:37,330
would say skeptically but I'm telling

870
00:34:43,409 --> 00:34:41,139
you how to suck eggs you know that you

871
00:34:44,820 --> 00:34:43,419
know they use this as part of their bag

872
00:34:46,409 --> 00:34:44,830
of tricks they wouldn't see it that way

873
00:34:50,490 --> 00:34:46,419
at all I imagine I would just

874
00:34:52,770 --> 00:34:50,500
subconsciously employ these these these

875
00:34:54,540 --> 00:34:52,780
bits of evidence to to make a decision

876
00:34:57,510 --> 00:34:54,550
about where to go well there's many

877
00:35:00,120 --> 00:34:57,520
factors one is as you saw the rods move

878
00:35:01,859 --> 00:35:00,130
they twitch they move they swing yeah we

879
00:35:04,890 --> 00:35:01,869
know why because the ideomotor action

880
00:35:07,230 --> 00:35:04,900
and the muscle movement yeah coupled

881
00:35:11,220 --> 00:35:07,240
with success

882
00:35:13,109 --> 00:35:11,230
yeah and coupled with the old standard

883
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:13,119
of remembering the times they were right

884
00:35:17,730 --> 00:35:16,089
and disregarding or excusing the times

885
00:35:19,950 --> 00:35:17,740
they were wrong and the power of belief

886
00:35:22,140 --> 00:35:19,960
yeah you know that's obviously at the

887
00:35:25,980 --> 00:35:22,150
bottom of the whole thing yeah so 40

888
00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:25,990
almost coming up to 40 years is 38 years

889
00:35:33,570 --> 00:35:28,630
ago that the James Randi in Australia

890
00:35:34,829 --> 00:35:33,580
was made and as we quite like to say in

891
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:34,839
the Australian skeptics it was one of

892
00:35:38,370 --> 00:35:36,640
the reasons that the organisation was

893
00:35:42,780 --> 00:35:38,380
kicked off this meeting this this

894
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:42,790
divining and I talk about James Randi in

895
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:44,410
Australia the documentary because not

896
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:45,970
only and we were discussing this before

897
00:35:51,570 --> 00:35:49,330
off air not only is it a classic of

898
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:51,580
skepticism that's got Randy in it which

899
00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:55,330
is always fun but you could film the

900
00:36:00,120 --> 00:35:58,330
same thing tomorrow and it would be

901
00:36:02,670 --> 00:36:00,130
scarcely any different you get the same

902
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:02,680
characters from the countryside rolling

903
00:36:10,020 --> 00:36:05,920
up with their wonderful devices and

904
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:10,030
things you'd get the same confidence and

905
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:11,410
you'd get the same results almost

906
00:36:16,740 --> 00:36:14,050
certainly because I I've been involved

907
00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:16,750
with a couple of since in the years

908
00:36:20,130 --> 00:36:18,790
since then and they in the same Ken and

909
00:36:22,230 --> 00:36:20,140
that struck me at the time the first

910
00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:22,240
time I was involved in a war of divining

911
00:36:26,370 --> 00:36:24,640
test along came the diviners from

912
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:26,380
central casting they're a wonderful

913
00:36:29,849 --> 00:36:28,330
group of it it's amazing that they still

914
00:36:31,410 --> 00:36:29,859
persist her in a way because when you

915
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:31,420
think of that 40 years that have gone by

916
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:34,690
and the explosion of geometric

917
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:37,570
proportions of knowledge and the

918
00:36:42,540 --> 00:36:39,520
mechanical and electronic devices to

919
00:36:44,820 --> 00:36:42,550
utilize that knowledge that they haven't

920
00:36:48,030 --> 00:36:44,830
in a way been subsided you know by it

921
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:48,040
was subsumed by by just electronic

922
00:36:51,930 --> 00:36:50,050
devices that can tell where water is and

923
00:36:53,940 --> 00:36:51,940
so on then so therefore that you don't

924
00:36:55,740 --> 00:36:53,950
have to have this sort of yeah sort of

925
00:37:06,420 --> 00:36:55,750
human element to it it's interesting

926
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:06,430
it's not gonna go away for this these

927
00:37:09,660 --> 00:37:08,050
good this group of people who are you

928
00:37:11,730 --> 00:37:09,670
know are probably keeping us a bit more

929
00:37:13,380 --> 00:37:11,740
human or something rather maybe there

930
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:13,390
are some sort of superstitions that we

931
00:37:16,770 --> 00:37:15,490
should hang on to do otherwise we're

932
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:16,780
just gonna be you know we're gonna grow

933
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:19,450
you know and tear out areas or something

934
00:37:25,140 --> 00:37:22,720
well they are one of the in some ways

935
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:25,150
they are quite wonderful and they

936
00:37:31,290 --> 00:37:28,720
usually with a very rare exception

937
00:37:33,839 --> 00:37:31,300
honest genuine yeah yeah exactly yeah I

938
00:37:35,940 --> 00:37:33,849
I was struck by that at the time just

939
00:37:37,950 --> 00:37:35,950
the level of their self belief and and

940
00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:37,960
and the gentleness they were really

941
00:37:41,460 --> 00:37:39,609
quite concerned about how embarrassed

942
00:37:43,410 --> 00:37:41,470
we're all gonna be you know when they

943
00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:43,420
all managed to do it yeah I mean it was

944
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:46,510
just extraordinary not one of them not

945
00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:48,970
one of them you know and had the

946
00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:51,280
prescience to basically see what a

947
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:54,089
diabolically cunning experiment this was

948
00:37:58,500 --> 00:37:56,560
because I remember and of course from

949
00:38:00,660 --> 00:37:58,510
the film you know they say right make

950
00:38:02,460 --> 00:38:00,670
sure you can't divine water when the

951
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:02,470
field was clear and then they dig the

952
00:38:06,359 --> 00:38:04,690
trench okay and then they put the pipe

953
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:06,369
on the trench and the open pipe of the

954
00:38:10,380 --> 00:38:08,530
water yes then they close the pipe with

955
00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:10,390
the water in it yes because they know

956
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:12,400
the waters in there then because they've

957
00:38:17,220 --> 00:38:14,170
seen it's been shown to them and then

958
00:38:19,020 --> 00:38:17,230
suddenly they're confronted with the ten

959
00:38:21,780 --> 00:38:19,030
pipes and only ones about the water in

960
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:21,790
it and you notice with all of them you

961
00:38:25,890 --> 00:38:23,950
know and they're suddenly there what's

962
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:25,900
the word I was gonna say antenna go up

963
00:38:31,260 --> 00:38:28,570
no I mean they suddenly they certainly

964
00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:31,270
do become more serious and a little bit

965
00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:33,910
more tentative about the whole thing but

966
00:38:38,180 --> 00:38:35,830
you know because they just do that's the

967
00:38:40,980 --> 00:38:38,190
situation they're in

968
00:38:43,140 --> 00:38:40,990
and you know yeah nothing nothing

969
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:43,150
happens they don't they don't you know

970
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:45,910
do it anyway folks of the documentary is

971
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:47,650
called James Randi and Australian is one

972
00:38:54,330 --> 00:38:49,690
of the jokes have always had what an

973
00:38:57,420 --> 00:38:54,340
imagined is titled it was yeah well you

974
00:38:58,980 --> 00:38:57,430
know I mean that it played on his name

975
00:39:00,960 --> 00:38:58,990
and that's the gene it was a

976
00:39:02,190 --> 00:39:00,970
world-famous figure yeah yeah the man

977
00:39:05,460 --> 00:39:02,200
who unmasked uri geller

978
00:39:07,230 --> 00:39:05,470
and of course it was only less than a

979
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:07,240
month after that he flew down to

980
00:39:10,620 --> 00:39:08,770
Melbourne to be on the Don Lane show and

981
00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:10,630
was spectacularly kicked off that's

982
00:39:13,410 --> 00:39:11,260
right

983
00:39:15,420 --> 00:39:13,420
yeah with me come here we are offering

984
00:39:17,370 --> 00:39:15,430
$5,000 the people that say people are

985
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:17,380
fakes you said Doris Stokes no fake no I

986
00:39:20,730 --> 00:39:19,450
just say uri geller is a fake you came

987
00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:20,740
here and you give it everybody a lot of

988
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:22,390
lizard no no rain you haven't done

989
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:24,250
anything I can show us a lot of tricks

990
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:26,710
that you tonight

991
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:26,890
[Music]

992
00:39:37,310 --> 00:39:35,120
you you come over here with this big

993
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:37,320
reputation you give us a lot of lip

994
00:39:40,670 --> 00:39:38,610
service about all this stuff that you're

995
00:39:42,290 --> 00:39:40,680
gonna prove you go against the lady like

996
00:39:43,460 --> 00:39:42,300
Doris Stokes who never harmed anybody in

997
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:43,470
her whole life and you call her a

998
00:39:48,260 --> 00:39:46,560
charlatan a fake you know yes I do you

999
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:48,270
said that she was a liar on the radio

1000
00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:50,130
you called her a liar No

1001
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:52,110
and that woman would I know anybody but

1002
00:40:03,590 --> 00:39:56,010
I don't know whether she's right no sir

1003
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:03,600
break and you can which Randy would have

1004
00:40:11,660 --> 00:40:06,510
loved oh well dick Smith loves it

1005
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:11,670
because suddenly when when Randy flew

1006
00:40:15,530 --> 00:40:13,770
back to Sydney and dick winters to the

1007
00:40:18,590 --> 00:40:15,540
airport to pick Randy up there are all

1008
00:40:22,190 --> 00:40:18,600
these reporters and dick great he was

1009
00:40:25,370 --> 00:40:22,200
giggling yeah yeah yeah decoys knew the

1010
00:40:27,260 --> 00:40:25,380
value of publicity good and bad yeah

1011
00:40:29,330 --> 00:40:27,270
Oh Bob honey what a pleasure has been to

1012
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:29,340
chat with you and again if I had a time

1013
00:40:34,850 --> 00:40:31,650
machine I'd love to have looked at that

1014
00:40:36,830 --> 00:40:34,860
day and see what it was like to be there

1015
00:40:38,270 --> 00:40:36,840
but we can all we can all be there by

1016
00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:38,280
watching James raining in Australia

1017
00:40:42,890 --> 00:40:40,740
folks again I'll put the link on this

1018
00:40:46,110 --> 00:40:42,900
week's show notes but for now Bob thanks

1019
00:41:10,539 --> 00:41:01,630
[Music]

1020
00:41:17,470 --> 00:41:10,549
putting out a call for help from the

1021
00:41:19,329 --> 00:41:17,480
sceptic zone listeners we have learned

1022
00:41:22,299 --> 00:41:19,339
that the Australian Government will soon

1023
00:41:24,789 --> 00:41:22,309
be taking down a website that holds a

1024
00:41:28,210 --> 00:41:24,799
lot of useful information to skeptics

1025
00:41:31,029 --> 00:41:28,220
and to the members of Friends of science

1026
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:31,039
in medicine these pages are the

1027
00:41:38,289 --> 00:41:33,410
complaints and determinations about

1028
00:41:40,450 --> 00:41:38,299
shonky therapeutics goods about 2,000 of

1029
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:40,460
them the Therapeutic Goods

1030
00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:42,710
Administration will soon be taking this

1031
00:41:48,609 --> 00:41:45,529
information down due to restructuring if

1032
00:41:52,089 --> 00:41:48,619
you have the skills to automate the copy

1033
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:52,099
of and back up of webpages a large

1034
00:42:02,950 --> 00:41:54,890
number of web pages would be really keen

1035
00:42:06,430 --> 00:42:02,960
to hear from you I know there are many

1036
00:42:08,740 --> 00:42:06,440
listeners with IT skills to this project

1037
00:42:16,150 --> 00:42:08,750
it doesn't matter where you live in the

1038
00:42:18,130 --> 00:42:16,160
world if you're able to help with this

1039
00:42:21,279 --> 00:42:18,140
project you'd be working with longtime

1040
00:42:23,650 --> 00:42:21,289
friend of the show dr. Ken Harvey as a

1041
00:42:26,289 --> 00:42:23,660
thank you you'd be given acknowledgement

1042
00:42:29,349 --> 00:42:26,299
on any scientific papers that arise as a

1043
00:42:32,650 --> 00:42:29,359
result of the project if you have some

1044
00:42:35,140 --> 00:42:32,660
spare time and the skills in automated

1045
00:42:39,970 --> 00:42:35,150
copying of webpages please get in

1046
00:42:45,370 --> 00:42:39,980
contact send an email to F SM complaints

1047
00:42:47,650 --> 00:42:45,380
at gmail.com that's f s M stands for

1048
00:42:52,460 --> 00:42:47,660
friends science and medicine complaints

1049
00:42:55,580 --> 00:42:52,470
at gmail.com s FM complaints is one word

1050
00:43:01,460 --> 00:42:55,590
and put in the subject line back up of

1051
00:43:04,670 --> 00:43:01,470
webpages this is your chance if you have

1052
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:04,680
the right sort of IT skills to be of

1053
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:07,650
real use to the skeptical movement thank

1054
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:24,450
you that looks good enough to eat or

1055
00:43:37,790 --> 00:43:30,810
does it here's the diet skeptic man

1056
00:43:42,070 --> 00:43:37,800
daily noble a loyal skeptic scientist

1057
00:43:49,730 --> 00:43:42,080
miss Mandy Lane oval here dietitian and

1058
00:43:52,609 --> 00:43:49,740
skeptic reporting from Brisbane this

1059
00:43:56,420 --> 00:43:52,619
episode of the diet skeptic report I

1060
00:43:59,240 --> 00:43:56,430
thought I would take a toady into a

1061
00:44:04,040 --> 00:43:59,250
topic that the media cannot seem to get

1062
00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:04,050
enough of our microbiota the human

1063
00:44:11,630 --> 00:44:08,240
microbiota is the 10 to 100 trillion

1064
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:11,640
symbiotic microbial cells harbored in

1065
00:44:19,070 --> 00:44:14,880
each person primarily bacteria in the

1066
00:44:22,130 --> 00:44:19,080
gut more specifically I want to talk

1067
00:44:24,770 --> 00:44:22,140
about kefir a fermented drink that is

1068
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:24,780
labeled as a probiotic and claimed to

1069
00:44:29,050 --> 00:44:26,810
have a large range of health benefits

1070
00:44:32,210 --> 00:44:29,060
owing to the possible positive

1071
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:32,220
contribution of it's symbiotic microbes

1072
00:44:39,740 --> 00:44:37,170
to our microbiota due to its growing

1073
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:39,750
popularity among health seekers and

1074
00:44:43,970 --> 00:44:41,490
natural health enthusiasts

1075
00:44:46,940 --> 00:44:43,980
Kathir has grown from being a

1076
00:44:50,180 --> 00:44:46,950
traditional home made food enjoyed

1077
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:50,190
mostly by Eastern European cultures to

1078
00:44:56,180 --> 00:44:52,290
being sold as commercial products in

1079
00:44:58,220 --> 00:44:56,190
major food retailers kefir is reported

1080
00:45:01,400 --> 00:44:58,230
to have originated from the caucus

1081
00:45:04,540 --> 00:45:01,410
mountains which extend as a barrier

1082
00:45:05,989 --> 00:45:04,550
between Eastern Europe and Western Asia

1083
00:45:09,649 --> 00:45:05,999
Cafe is a

1084
00:45:11,749 --> 00:45:09,659
mented drink traditionally made using

1085
00:45:16,249 --> 00:45:11,759
cow's milk or goat's milk

1086
00:45:18,969 --> 00:45:16,259
it tastes sour and acidic and it can be

1087
00:45:21,829 --> 00:45:18,979
effervescent and slightly alcoholic

1088
00:45:26,149 --> 00:45:21,839
depending on the culture used to prepare

1089
00:45:28,699 --> 00:45:26,159
it is made using kefir grains which is

1090
00:45:31,579 --> 00:45:28,709
the term used to describe the culture of

1091
00:45:34,699 --> 00:45:31,589
yeast and lactic acid bacteria that is

1092
00:45:37,219 --> 00:45:34,709
more like cauliflower and appearance the

1093
00:45:41,329 --> 00:45:37,229
bacteria convert the lactose to lactic

1094
00:45:43,729 --> 00:45:41,339
acid decreasing the milks pH and the

1095
00:45:47,389 --> 00:45:43,739
yeast produces ethanol and carbon

1096
00:45:50,569 --> 00:45:47,399
dioxide from the lactic acid homemade

1097
00:45:54,259 --> 00:45:50,579
kefir can usually be produced in around

1098
00:45:57,199 --> 00:45:54,269
24 hours in a process similar to making

1099
00:45:59,539 --> 00:45:57,209
yogurt the kefir grains are strained

1100
00:46:02,599 --> 00:45:59,549
from the mixture and can be perpetually

1101
00:46:06,079 --> 00:46:02,609
used again to make more kefir kefir can

1102
00:46:09,799 --> 00:46:06,089
also be made using water or coconut milk

1103
00:46:12,769 --> 00:46:09,809
or even coconut or water provided there

1104
00:46:15,979 --> 00:46:12,779
is sufficient sugar in the mixture to

1105
00:46:18,229 --> 00:46:15,989
feed the fermentation process so to

1106
00:46:21,169 --> 00:46:18,239
answer the question of whether there is

1107
00:46:23,479 --> 00:46:21,179
any health benefits to consuming kefir I

1108
00:46:25,339 --> 00:46:23,489
will start with the current evidence

1109
00:46:29,479 --> 00:46:25,349
regarding the health benefits of

1110
00:46:33,199 --> 00:46:29,489
probiotics a probiotic is defined as

1111
00:46:35,779 --> 00:46:33,209
live microorganisms which when a

1112
00:46:39,229 --> 00:46:35,789
minister din adequate amounts confer a

1113
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:39,239
health benefit on the host so by

1114
00:46:45,369 --> 00:46:41,729
definition of food that is labeled as a

1115
00:46:48,199 --> 00:46:45,379
probiotic has an implied health benefit

1116
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:48,209
however benefits from probiotics in

1117
00:46:54,439 --> 00:46:50,729
healthy people is currently not

1118
00:46:58,149 --> 00:46:54,449
supported by the research a recent

1119
00:47:02,299 --> 00:46:58,159
Cochrane review of 16 systematic reviews

1120
00:47:05,389 --> 00:47:02,309
found little scientific evidence and no

1121
00:47:07,609 --> 00:47:05,399
high quality scientific evidence for the

1122
00:47:10,909 --> 00:47:07,619
use of probiotics as a preventative

1123
00:47:14,299 --> 00:47:10,919
measure well only a small number of

1124
00:47:17,359 --> 00:47:14,309
strains specific clinical applications

1125
00:47:19,650 --> 00:47:17,369
for probiotics are evidence-based to

1126
00:47:22,020 --> 00:47:19,660
date the European food and safety of

1127
00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:22,030
already has not approved any health

1128
00:47:26,970 --> 00:47:24,910
label claims for probiotics and some

1129
00:47:29,809 --> 00:47:26,980
European countries will not allow the

1130
00:47:34,079 --> 00:47:29,819
word probiotic to be used on food labels

1131
00:47:36,750 --> 00:47:34,089
in Australia the term probiotic is also

1132
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:36,760
considered to be health claim and should

1133
00:47:42,589 --> 00:47:39,490
accurately reflect the underlying

1134
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:42,599
scientific evidence in adherence to

1135
00:47:48,420 --> 00:47:45,490
Australian food regulatory standards

1136
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:48,430
so what other health claims made about

1137
00:47:54,210 --> 00:47:52,000
kefir commercially prepared kefir drinks

1138
00:47:56,900 --> 00:47:54,220
in Australia appear to be labeled with

1139
00:48:00,720 --> 00:47:56,910
meaningless wellness claims such as

1140
00:48:03,710 --> 00:48:00,730
friendly live cultures and maintains

1141
00:48:07,170 --> 00:48:03,720
your body's inner balance naturally

1142
00:48:10,890 --> 00:48:07,180
however wellness bogs are full of much

1143
00:48:13,620 --> 00:48:10,900
more specific health claims I'm just

1144
00:48:17,309 --> 00:48:13,630
going to name a few with the caveat that

1145
00:48:19,410 --> 00:48:17,319
the real list is very long but these are

1146
00:48:21,990 --> 00:48:19,420
rabbit holes that I'm trying to avoid in

1147
00:48:25,859 --> 00:48:22,000
the interest of having a story completed

1148
00:48:26,490 --> 00:48:25,869
on time anyway some of the benefits of

1149
00:48:29,250 --> 00:48:26,500
kefir

1150
00:48:33,230 --> 00:48:29,260
ayuh was able to find with just a

1151
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:33,240
cursory glance of the interwebs included

1152
00:48:38,460 --> 00:48:36,010
antibacterial properties protection

1153
00:48:41,299 --> 00:48:38,470
against cancer lowering of blood

1154
00:48:44,569 --> 00:48:41,309
pressure and blood glucose levels

1155
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:44,579
treatment of inflammatory bowel disease

1156
00:48:50,670 --> 00:48:47,650
irritable bowel syndrome and lactose

1157
00:48:53,450 --> 00:48:50,680
intolerance as well as improvements of

1158
00:48:56,700 --> 00:48:53,460
these symptoms of allergies and asthma

1159
00:48:59,789 --> 00:48:56,710
kefir is also a food promoted by the

1160
00:49:03,480 --> 00:48:59,799
otherwise extremely restrictive gaps

1161
00:49:05,970 --> 00:49:03,490
diet a non evidence-based dietary

1162
00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:05,980
treatment for symptoms associated with

1163
00:49:11,490 --> 00:49:09,609
autism spectrum disorder in my search to

1164
00:49:14,430 --> 00:49:11,500
find proven health benefits from the

1165
00:49:17,940 --> 00:49:14,440
consumption of kefir and humans I found

1166
00:49:20,849 --> 00:49:17,950
very little evidence a search of PubMed

1167
00:49:24,029 --> 00:49:20,859
for randomized controlled trials to test

1168
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:24,039
the benefits for kefir found us very

1169
00:49:31,650 --> 00:49:28,450
small number of individual studies only

1170
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:31,660
one study reported a difference between

1171
00:49:36,870 --> 00:49:33,490
the group that consumed

1172
00:49:39,210 --> 00:49:36,880
and the control group this was in a

1173
00:49:43,079 --> 00:49:39,220
long-term measurement of blood glucose

1174
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:43,089
levels or HB 1 AC levels for a small

1175
00:49:48,810 --> 00:49:46,720
group of diabetics however much caution

1176
00:49:52,109 --> 00:49:48,820
should be applied in interpreting these

1177
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:52,119
results due to the study design the

1178
00:49:57,450 --> 00:49:54,130
duration of the study and the small

1179
00:49:59,520 --> 00:49:57,460
number of participants also a single

1180
00:50:03,000 --> 00:49:59,530
study can only suggest a possible

1181
00:50:05,310 --> 00:50:03,010
benefit to that particular care for

1182
00:50:08,550 --> 00:50:05,320
culture and does not constitute evidence

1183
00:50:11,700 --> 00:50:08,560
of benefit to all diabetics from kefir

1184
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:11,710
in general i've also observed some

1185
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:13,810
wellness bloggers claiming the kefir

1186
00:50:19,500 --> 00:50:17,410
reduces the risk of osteoporosis due to

1187
00:50:21,690 --> 00:50:19,510
the calcium in the milk used to produce

1188
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:21,700
the kefir I think I'll give them this

1189
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:25,290
one other any risk consuming kefir

1190
00:50:31,620 --> 00:50:28,330
some careful recipes stipulate the use

1191
00:50:33,930 --> 00:50:31,630
of raw milk this would present a risk of

1192
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:33,940
foodborne illness particularly to

1193
00:50:38,730 --> 00:50:36,160
infants and children the elderly and

1194
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:38,740
those who are immunocompromised the

1195
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:40,570
claim that careful will not ferment in

1196
00:50:46,050 --> 00:50:43,810
pasteurized milk is false so to sum it

1197
00:50:48,450 --> 00:50:46,060
up it seems that kefir is a traditional

1198
00:50:50,820 --> 00:50:48,460
beverage that has been enjoyed by many

1199
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:50,830
cultures for a long time and for those

1200
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:52,810
who enjoy it I would encourage them to

1201
00:50:58,470 --> 00:50:56,050
doing so but for those who do not enjoy

1202
00:51:00,990 --> 00:50:58,480
the taste of kefir or for whom making

1203
00:51:03,450 --> 00:51:01,000
kefir is a burden or to whom purchasing

1204
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:03,460
kefir products is a significant expense

1205
00:51:09,060 --> 00:51:06,250
there is no evidence of health benefits

1206
00:51:11,310 --> 00:51:09,070
beyond those of the nutritional

1207
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:11,320
ingredients used to produce the cattle

1208
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:14,970
[Music]

1209
00:51:20,490 --> 00:51:18,490
so until next time skeptics this has

1210
00:51:21,910 --> 00:51:20,500
been the diet skeptic rapper

1211
00:51:25,340 --> 00:51:21,920
thank you for listening

1212
00:51:27,770 --> 00:51:25,350
[Music]

1213
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:27,780
[Applause]

1214
00:51:49,450 --> 00:51:46,110
[Laughter]

1215
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:49,460
[Music]

1216
00:51:59,000 --> 00:51:55,050
skeptical 20:18 conference registration

1217
00:52:04,650 --> 00:52:02,099
registration for sceptical 2018

1218
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:04,660
conference the 9th Northern California

1219
00:52:08,089 --> 00:52:07,210
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1220
00:52:10,740 --> 00:52:08,099
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1221
00:52:13,620 --> 00:52:10,750
skeptical is excited to bring a stellar

1222
00:52:16,710 --> 00:52:13,630
list of speakers on timely and important

1223
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:16,720
topics to you this June this year's

1224
00:52:22,079 --> 00:52:18,790
event will be held at the Shattuck Hotel

1225
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:22,089
Plaza in Berkeley California on Sunday

1226
00:52:27,420 --> 00:52:25,210
the 10th of June 2018 the diverse

1227
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:27,430
speakers will give you tools to

1228
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understand bad science and fake views

1229
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enlighten you about homelessness and

1230
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artificial intelligence protect your

1231
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children from being hacked and maybe

1232
00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:40,109
even by being abducted by aliens

1233
00:52:44,599 --> 00:52:42,400
information on the speakers and their

1234
00:52:49,950 --> 00:52:44,609
topics can be found at the website

1235
00:52:52,620 --> 00:52:49,960
skeptical con-com skeptical work hard to

1236
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:52,630
make this a thought-provoking timely

1237
00:52:58,940 --> 00:52:55,210
subjects top-notch world-class speakers

1238
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1239
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discount rates are available before the

1240
00:53:08,329 --> 00:53:04,960
15th of May to grab those early tickets

1241
00:53:11,339 --> 00:53:08,339
and for more information visit skeptical

1242
00:53:13,290 --> 00:53:11,349
con-com or just look for the links in

1243
00:53:35,099 --> 00:53:13,300
this week's show notes

1244
00:53:39,490 --> 00:53:37,690
thank you for listening to the skeptics

1245
00:53:42,010 --> 00:53:39,500
are now coming up soon we're going to be

1246
00:53:44,980 --> 00:53:42,020
bringing you details about the upcoming

1247
00:53:48,039 --> 00:53:44,990
Australian skeptics convention later on

1248
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:48,049
in the year in October hopefully we can

1249
00:53:51,130 --> 00:53:49,490
line up some interviews of some of the

1250
00:53:53,109 --> 00:53:51,140
speakers coming up and we'll tell you

1251
00:53:54,579 --> 00:53:53,119
who's who and what's what and how to do

1252
00:53:56,289 --> 00:53:54,589
it and where to get your tickets and all

1253
00:53:58,030 --> 00:53:56,299
that sort of good stuff something to

1254
00:54:01,059 --> 00:53:58,040
look forward to if you're in Sydney or

1255
00:54:02,740 --> 00:54:01,069
Australia or anywhere you can always

1256
00:54:05,650 --> 00:54:02,750
jump on a plane the Australian skeptics

1257
00:54:07,420 --> 00:54:05,660
National Convention later on in the year

1258
00:54:09,460 --> 00:54:07,430
of course there are other conventions

1259
00:54:11,260 --> 00:54:09,470
before that or around the same time or

1260
00:54:14,799 --> 00:54:11,270
during the year like we heard about

1261
00:54:16,809 --> 00:54:14,809
skeptic owl in California there's the

1262
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:16,819
committee for skeptical inquiry the

1263
00:54:21,670 --> 00:54:18,530
saikhan coming up a bit later on

1264
00:54:23,980 --> 00:54:21,680
QED all sorts of conventions and before

1265
00:54:27,190 --> 00:54:23,990
I go another thank you as I do

1266
00:54:30,039 --> 00:54:27,200
periodically to the supporters of the

1267
00:54:33,039 --> 00:54:30,049
skeptics and those who subscribed by

1268
00:54:34,780 --> 00:54:33,049
patreon at skeptic zone TV or just

1269
00:54:37,180 --> 00:54:34,790
through PayPal micro payments whatever

1270
00:54:39,670 --> 00:54:37,190
thank you very much your contributions

1271
00:54:42,789 --> 00:54:39,680
not only mean the show keeps going that

1272
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:42,799
I can also afford to buy things for

1273
00:54:48,250 --> 00:54:46,130
reporters and help fund little trips and

1274
00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:48,260
interviews and things like that so no

1275
00:54:53,470 --> 00:54:51,200
matter where you are or if you support

1276
00:54:56,140 --> 00:54:53,480
the show financially or not I hope you

1277
00:54:57,910 --> 00:54:56,150
will enjoy it but give a thought to the

1278
00:55:00,000 --> 00:54:57,920
people who do financially support the

1279
00:55:03,010 --> 00:55:00,010
show even if it's five dollars a month

1280
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:03,020
via patreon or something like that it's

1281
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:05,210
thanks to those people and their

1282
00:55:09,490 --> 00:55:07,970
generosity that everybody can enjoy I

1283
00:55:11,260 --> 00:55:09,500
hope enjoyed listening to the skeptic

1284
00:55:13,630 --> 00:55:11,270
zone oh and if you have time why not

1285
00:55:16,510 --> 00:55:13,640
have a look at the documentary James

1286
00:55:19,329 --> 00:55:16,520
Randi in Australia again it's it's a

1287
00:55:21,309 --> 00:55:19,339
classic the classic of skepticism but

1288
00:55:23,230 --> 00:55:21,319
for this week until next week when I

1289
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:23,240
hope to bring you lots more information

1290
00:55:25,450 --> 00:55:25,010
about the Australian skeptics National

1291
00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:25,460
Convention

1292
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:27,710
this is Richard Saunders signing off

1293
00:55:38,930 --> 00:55:35,250
you've been listening to the skeptic

1294
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:38,940
zone podcast please visit our website at

1295
00:55:46,620 --> 00:55:43,930
WWDC be for show notes contacts and to

1296
00:55:50,370 --> 00:55:46,630
access the bat catalog of episodes going

1297
00:55:53,180 --> 00:55:50,380
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1298
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:53,190
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1299
00:55:57,470 --> 00:55:55,930
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1300
00:56:00,150 --> 00:55:57,480
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1301
00:56:03,540 --> 00:56:00,160
you can also support the skeptic zone

1302
00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:03,550
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1303
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:06,240
podcast is an independent production

1304
00:56:10,770 --> 00:56:08,650
reviews and opinions expressed on the

1305
00:56:13,109 --> 00:56:10,780
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1306
00:56:14,900 --> 00:56:13,119
of Australian skeptics or any other

1307
00:56:26,290 --> 00:56:14,910
sceptical organisation

1308
00:56:31,940 --> 00:56:29,300
happy birthday to ADA the little girl

1309
00:56:33,110 --> 00:56:31,950
who is featured on the vaccinations

1310
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:33,120
Chronicles right at the beginning

1311
00:56:38,330 --> 00:56:35,610
playing in the park with her mum and her

1312
00:56:42,890 --> 00:56:38,340
brother happy birthday to ADA who's

1313
00:56:45,770 --> 00:56:42,900
turning the big six six oh it's good to

1314
00:56:48,500 --> 00:56:45,780
be six years old happy birthday from the